tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post8982628357889714879..comments2024-03-06T13:50:29.718+05:30Comments on E's flat, ah's flat too: The fake folk bluesRahul Siddharthanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-33216059382854324672007-04-26T23:04:00.000+05:302007-04-26T23:04:00.000+05:30greg -- one isn't dismissing the concept of authen...greg -- one isn't dismissing the <I>concept</I> of authenticity, one is dismissing the <I>value</I> of the concept. It seems to me you agree there.<BR/><BR/>There may be high-quality "authentic" folk music of any persuasion (that is, played the way it has long been traditionally played in that community). In that sense, the delta blues, even if "authentic", isn't a particularly ancient tradition. But authenticity does not imply quality (or lack of quality, either) -- it's just an unrelated concept.<BR/><BR/>When a music company pigeonholes an artist like Leadbelly or John Hurt as a "black Mississippi Delta bluesman" and forces him to perform in a certain way, in the name of authenticity -- I think one has every right to complain, <I>even if one liked the results</I>. Imagine what they could have recorded if they had been free to choose.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-59955316032933720662007-04-26T20:25:00.000+05:302007-04-26T20:25:00.000+05:30I think there's a confusion here in positing the i...I think there's a confusion here in positing the ideal and the myth of "authenticity" on both sides. On one hand you're saying these musicians were manipulated at the hands of record companies and thus aren't "authentic" and on the other you dismiss the concept outright. It can't go both ways. To say John Hurt isn't "authentic" and then say the question of this "authenticity" is bullshit anyways is to negate basis of the first critique. "I don't like it and if the reason you do is reason <I> a </I>, well, reason <I>a</I> is bullshit so I'm right on both accounts." And further, to deny the marketplace, or whatever term, in any musical form is a bit idealistic. Music, etc. doesn't exist in a vacuum and the idealisation of the authentic as you put forth here wishes so. King Oliver, Bessie Smith, whomever, existed within similar exterior circumstances. <BR/>You may prefer one form to another but to only call upon the forces outside musical creation, as a dismissal, in one instance and not acknowledge that different forms of "manipulation" or shaping exist is to perpetuate this idea of authenticity you wish to negate.<BR/>I agree that in the blues revival etc there was manipulation and pigeonholing and such in the idea of blues players but one can acknowledge this and not use it as a means to dismiss outright.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-26409628677870369472007-04-26T17:00:00.000+05:302007-04-26T17:00:00.000+05:30gregkite - charlie patton (from what little i've h...gregkite - charlie patton (from what little i've heard) seems like an endorsement of the idea that there was no "pure" "black" mississippi delta blues. Not only does he sound nothing like later bluesmen (eg Robert Johnson) but his race was ambiguous too. And from what I can tell, he owed nothing to record companies. Son House -- what I've heard him is indeed the sort of "official" delta blues that I don't find very musical, but maybe he started out differently. <BR/><BR/><I>it isn't a question of "authenticity" its a question of talent. </I><BR/><BR/>That's my point too.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-78719107948848087832007-04-26T11:01:00.001+05:302007-04-26T11:01:00.001+05:30fyi: if you think the best part of "basin street b...fyi: if you think the best part of "basin street blues" is the singing i'm at a loss. listen again, paying attention at the 2:00 mark, and especially the moments at 2:14-2:33 and the change at 2:33. still think the singing is the best part? then i give upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-41745933169042031972007-04-26T11:01:00.000+05:302007-04-26T11:01:00.000+05:30fyi: if you think the best part of "basin street b...fyi: if you think the best part of "basin street blues" is the singing i'm at a loss. listen again, paying attention at the 2:00 mark, and especially the moments at 2:14-2:33 and the change at 2:33. still think the singing is the best part? then i give upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-13774037612955924282007-04-26T10:52:00.000+05:302007-04-26T10:52:00.000+05:30do you honestly believe that people like charley p...do you honestly believe that people like charley patton or son house or are musically inept, tuneless, expressionless minstrel men coerced into recording what they did by the record company honchos? if so i will gladly leave you to the allman brothers and whatever swill you prefer to infect your ears with. i'll be happy with the memphis jug band. it seems slightly absurd to claim the coersion of mississippi john hurt and leadbelly and stake a claim to a greater "authenticity" based upon these sources and deny the actual artifacts of their music that exists now. perhaps it doesn't strike your fancy. if so, we'll call it a matter of taste. though listen to the memphis jug band or dixieland jug blowers or many others and tell me that its all a tuneless musically unsophistaced mess, as you seem to imply, and i'll show you a backwards set of ears. but to dismiss the "fake" delta blues outright seems a bit foolish. go listen charley patton or skip james or bukka white and tell me that its all an out of tune absurdity (not to mention the unbeatable blind blake, perhaps the greatest guitar player we could ever see, someone whos rages show musical radicalism and innovation at all turns) if you truly believe so, and maintain the allman brothers as some form of great blues, well, i'll know to dismiss your views outright from now on. and it isn't a question of "authenticity" its a question of talent. i'll stand by the holy modal rounders, bob dylan, townes van zandt, jim kweskin and numerous others as those that have the same acheivment of musical genuis as a patton or son house or skip james anyday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-64398553545687294622007-04-25T08:48:00.000+05:302007-04-25T08:48:00.000+05:30Yes, the quotes you supply and the parts of the re...Yes, the quotes you supply and the parts of the review pertaining to the blues sound interesting. The parts that deal with contemporary rock/pop sound less convincing, but no doubt I need to read the book. I'll order it soon.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comments!Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-20621542901172355062007-04-25T01:05:00.000+05:302007-04-25T01:05:00.000+05:30I'll declare an interest here - I know one of the ...I'll declare an interest here - I know one of the authors slightly, which is why I got the book.<BR/><BR/>But having confessed that, yes I would recommend the book. I don't agree with every point they make, but it is a thoughtful argument, often very interesting, and makes a lot of points I hadn't really thought about before reading it. <BR/><BR/>At the least it is a book that challenges a lot of the ideas about music that we take for granted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-68425131122749225972007-04-24T23:54:00.000+05:302007-04-24T23:54:00.000+05:30Thalia - thanks. Would you recommend buying the b...Thalia - thanks. Would you recommend buying the book?Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-35069975311832324592007-04-24T23:17:00.000+05:302007-04-24T23:17:00.000+05:30Hi, I have the book, and I believe it's the review...Hi, <BR/><BR/>I have the book, and I believe it's the reviewer's mistake. The writers describe Hurt as coming from the Delta, or at least from the 'edge of the Delta'. A sample quote: "Time magazine called him "the most important rediscovered folk singer to come out of Mississippi's Delta country, the traditional home of Negro country blues singers" even though Hurt lived in predominantly white Carroll County.'<BR/><BR/>The point they are emphasizing is that Hurt learned to play his music in a very mixed environment, often learning styles and songs from the white musicians he played with. Whereas the blues revival emphasized the notion that blues came out of an essentially black environment, the truth is it was much more mixed. White singers played blues as well, and record companies only wanted blues from black artists - Hurt didn't even sound like a 'Delta bluesman' - he could equally have been identified as a kind of country/folk artist but the racial segregation of genres was created by the record company and he could only be perceived as a bluesman.<BR/><BR/>(Interesting blog, by the way).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-6370611240590985282007-04-24T23:02:00.000+05:302007-04-24T23:02:00.000+05:30Hm, Wikipedia says the same. Looks like a goof by...Hm, Wikipedia says the same. Looks like a goof by either the authors or reviewers. But his music, from what I know (which isn't much), doesn't seem like traditional 12-bar blues: it had country and folk elements in it.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-36865510439601626282007-04-24T20:19:00.000+05:302007-04-24T20:19:00.000+05:30sorry, rahul. no transcript. first thing john says...sorry, rahul. no transcript. first thing john says on that interview is that he was born and raised in mississippi (teoc and avalon, respectively), so i dont know how to square that with the claim "Hurt wasnt from the Mississippi Delta"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-40178015407044188462007-04-24T14:53:00.000+05:302007-04-24T14:53:00.000+05:30ws - thanks for the link, but it's kind of difficu...ws - thanks for the link, but it's kind of difficult: my home connection is a bit too slow for a 72 MB download, and it seems too long to listen to at work (I'm spending limited hours in office these days). Any idea whether a transcript exists?Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-39232311347020869612007-04-23T21:29:00.000+05:302007-04-23T21:29:00.000+05:30sorry, that link didnt come out right. go here : h...sorry, that link didnt come out right. go here : <BR/><BR/>http://web.mit.edu/deepg/Public/<BR/><BR/>and click on "06 - Pete Seeger...."<BR/><BR/>enjoy!wildflower seedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524758486095224055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-30742261783804785812007-04-23T21:28:00.000+05:302007-04-23T21:28:00.000+05:30musicians can often speak for themselves.........h...musicians can often speak for themselves.........<BR/><BR/>http://web.mit.edu/download/deepg/Public/06%20-%20Pete%20Seeger,%20John%20Hurt%20Interview.mp3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-22806007794625381482007-04-21T15:33:00.000+05:302007-04-21T15:33:00.000+05:30ha! that's trying easier, not harder.ha! that's trying easier, not harder.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-19079992245301700752007-04-21T10:04:00.000+05:302007-04-21T10:04:00.000+05:30TR - try harder. (Eg, "i'd *told* aunty it was a ...TR - try harder. (Eg, "i'd *told* aunty it was a mistake to allow you to that arty classical stuff." or, "are you saying dylan can carry a tune?" etc.)Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-20564597195537403602007-04-21T06:50:00.000+05:302007-04-21T06:50:00.000+05:30you heartless man. i'd *told* aunty it was a mista...you heartless man. i'd *told* aunty it was a mistake to allow you to watch channel v.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-40208236986400723292007-04-21T01:21:00.000+05:302007-04-21T01:21:00.000+05:30km - thanks and I have my asbestos vest on... but ...km - thanks and I have my asbestos vest on... but other than TR, I'm not sure how many blues fans read my blog.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-60139160178890213822007-04-21T00:42:00.000+05:302007-04-21T00:42:00.000+05:30Rahul: that's a great post and you better get your...Rahul: that's a great post and you better get your boxing gloves out :D<BR/><BR/>To be continued.kmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16040339235134145847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-43813924112830160292007-04-20T23:30:00.000+05:302007-04-20T23:30:00.000+05:30Umm... what tune?Umm... what tune?Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-78453074586519396852007-04-20T23:09:00.000+05:302007-04-20T23:09:00.000+05:30Wait, are you saying that none of Robert Johnson, ...Wait, are you saying that none of Robert Johnson, Sonny Boy Williamson, Muddy Waters, Howling Wolf, B B King, or Willie Dixon could hold a tune?Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.com