tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post852899628760473822..comments2024-03-06T13:50:29.718+05:30Comments on E's flat, ah's flat too: Our crassly commercial youth?Rahul Siddharthanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-2565884969713529182008-05-05T22:03:00.000+05:302008-05-05T22:03:00.000+05:30Hi,I am an Indian student who recently left TIFR a...Hi,<BR/><BR/>I am an Indian student who recently left TIFR and came to New York to complete my phd. Thank you for your post. It helps me to know that there are people denouncing such cliques openly. It makes the decision to come back to india and ply my trade easierarjun narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11638493015183690458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-19755414456075502922007-03-16T18:09:00.000+05:302007-03-16T18:09:00.000+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.Vidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01042750630504240661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-56734142218490258782007-03-16T18:05:00.000+05:302007-03-16T18:05:00.000+05:30I came across your articel while I was surfing the...I came across your articel while I was surfing the net. I could not agree more with your opinion on Science in India. We need to be able to stop being so biased and be able to make a distinction between our "Indianness" and being a scientist. The two are different and being a Scientist is global, not localised. My rant is against all techers/professors in India who judje their sudents on their "Indianess" and very rarely on their capabilities and potential.Vidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01042750630504240661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-88748657829073909092006-12-02T06:25:00.000+05:302006-12-02T06:25:00.000+05:30Rahul:
Thanks for your message. I have always sa...Rahul:<br /><br />Thanks for your message. I have always said,<br />whenever I have had a chance, that the<br />encouragement to science has to tempered<br />with the issue of career prospects. This is<br />why I do have a problem with the abstract<br />manner in which science is 'encouraged'.<br />See also the comments section to my post<br />on becoming a professional physicist, where<br />I have expressed my reservations [unfortunately<br />on this safari browser I am unable to provide<br />the link]. I must also add that part of my <br />pessimism is specific to the field of theoretical<br />physics, where a person who graduates with<br />a Ph. D. has practically no other prospects<br />except in research. This, obviously, is not the<br />case in other subfields of physics, biology, etc.<br />where a person can be gainfully be employed<br />in industrial research, or in general has the<br />background to diversify. <br /><br />Best regards, AnantAnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-30882592193605017932006-12-01T21:55:00.000+05:302006-12-01T21:55:00.000+05:30anant - if you believe it's that hard to get a job...anant - if you believe it's that hard to get a job, maybe we shouldn't be encouraging children to do science... but the problem is our university system churns out way too many useless degree-holders at all levels. (The subject of yet another future post...) I think almost nobody who comes out of IISc, IMSc, etc with PhDs fails to get a good job. Most do phoren postdocs, because they can, but I know some who didn't and haven't suffered for it.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-27369034267713246092006-12-01T21:40:00.000+05:302006-12-01T21:40:00.000+05:30Rahul:
Thanks for the message. I will
keep this ...Rahul:<br /><br />Thanks for the message. I will<br />keep this short and will save<br />longer notes for your future<br />separate post.<br /><br />I think that the fear of parents<br />about children starving from <br />going into a career is science<br />is not misconceived. While it<br />is true that our salaries are ok,<br />you know as well as I do that it<br />is VERY DIFFICULT to get such<br />positions. Unless you have the<br />linear track record of Ph. D.,<br />2-3 phoren post-docs, how does<br />one land a job at IMSc or at<br />IISc? What is the future of a <br />person who finishes a Ph. D. in<br />science at even a better one of<br />our better Universities? There<br />are innumerable unemployed<br />persons with Ph. D.'s in theoretical<br />physics knocking from pillar to<br />post trying to find jobs. Unless<br />the policy makers come up with<br />some kind of an assured <br />employment scheme, these<br />problems will persist. I must,<br />however, add that if one does<br />a reasonable Ph. D. in experimental physics, perhaps<br />it is not that hard to land a<br />reasonable job. Again this is<br />apparent only from the success<br />stories --- where are the real<br />statistics on Ph. D. acquisition<br />and subsequent career options?<br /><br />More after your promised post.<br /><br />Best regards, AnantAnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-10383824087730234772006-12-01T21:29:00.000+05:302006-12-01T21:29:00.000+05:30anant - thanks for the comment.
I don't think it...anant - thanks for the comment. <br /><br />I don't think it is as simple as highlighting achievements -- they are already well highlighted (such as they are). This is really the subject for a separate post (maybe one of these days...) but, in a nutshell, I really think it is about money. A lot of pressure to do engineering, etc, comes from parents -- you yourself say (elsewhere) that you started off in engineering and switched. And the reason is they don't want the kids to starve. We romanticise starving artists but don't want our kids to become one. <br /><br />So the number one thing to do is remove the misconception that scientists starve. Our payscales are not great but are perfectly adequate to live on -- and, given that in India they're linked to government scales, this will stay that way (plus we get pension plans and LTC and the other usual government benefits). Jobs, for talented people, are plentiful. And there is even a demand in industry for talented people with PhDs in basic sciences. <br /><br />There are other misconceptions but we should start with this one.<br /><br />Really, given that other kinds of government jobs continue to be in demand, I don't see why academic jobs shouldn't be -- at least if you're an honest person.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-67873384958003584042006-12-01T20:59:00.000+05:302006-12-01T20:59:00.000+05:30Rahul:
Thanks for your message. Let me try one
m...Rahul:<br /><br />Thanks for your message. Let me try one<br />more time to convince you what it is that<br />I see in the CNR article. I have already<br />stated that it could have been written<br />differently, but the main essence that needs<br />to be extracted is simply this: no society<br />can continue in this manner where young<br />graduates simply go off into highly paying<br />jobs which are not particularly value adding,<br />and which do not lead to the growth of the<br />individual or the country. Much of the work<br />that goes on in the IT sector in Bangalore<br />is dull, repetitive, and soul crushing.<br />Many 'trapped' in this wish when it is<br />almost too late that they were doing more<br />creative, learning things, etc.. So, an avenue<br />has to exist for those that will contribute to<br />science, art, or whatever. I think one should<br />look a the CNR article in this perspective.<br />His call for greater recognition of those who<br />contribute in these spheres is a positive one.<br />In fact, we should contribute ourselves to<br />such endeavours. For instance, we should<br />feature on our blogs the important work done<br />by each other, as an example. It need not<br />be that India should be represented only by<br />the Nandan Nilekani's and the NRN's and <br />the Desh Deshpandes, and what the hell, my<br />B. Tech classmate Phaneesh Murthy. It should<br />be represented by, e.g., my other B. Tech<br />classmate Vijay Nambisan (author and poet)<br />or Prabhu Nott (IISc Prof.).<br /><br />BTW I agree with your observation:<br />``If we don't have better science coverage, is it possibly because we don't do better science?''<br /><br />Finally, I am reminded of an old anecdote<br />about someone who was complaining about<br />the great Abdus Salam in the presence of<br />his long time collaborator John Strathdee.<br />Strathdee at the end of this, is said to have<br />merely noted that great men have great faults.<br /><br />Best regards, AnantAnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-68004775530319933312006-12-01T20:04:00.000+05:302006-12-01T20:04:00.000+05:30Anant - actually I didn't know about your blog. O...Anant - actually I didn't know about your blog. One more to add to my akregator.<br /><br />I do not dispute the artistic quality of carnatic music -- I often listen to it myself. However (this is not Bangalore-specific, but CNR was focussing on Bangalore), if one looks at either the performers (except for nadaswaram players -- that's another story) or the audience, they do tend to be predominantly from one community. I'm not suggesting there was a conscious exclusion process at work -- perhaps it just failed to appeal to other communities, including most north Indians I know. Hindustani music has been quite a bit more diverse.<br /><br />Yes, dancers were looked down upon until Rukmini Devi came along. That was the early 20th century, and I was talking of more recent times.<br /><br />Yes, CNR has a right to be nostalgic, and I have a right to criticise what he says about the youth. As sri points out, it's not a totally harmless thing to go on tirades against the youth. Note also that he published in a national newspaper and I published on my personal blog.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-62772069996029917732006-12-01T19:47:00.000+05:302006-12-01T19:47:00.000+05:30Rahul:
If you had been a diligent reader of my bl...Rahul:<br /><br />If you had been a diligent reader of my blog,<br />you would have found the quotation you<br />were searching for:<br /><br /><br />``The earth is degenerating fast. <br />Bribery and corruption abound.<br />Children no longer mind parents <br />and it is evident the end of the<br />world is approaching fast.'' <br />(Assyrian Tablet, 2800 B. C., which<br />I first found in an email from <br />Sreerup Raychaudhuri, and<br />later confirmed by google search).<br /><br />In any case, I think that a tirade against<br />CNR serves no purpose at all. I do not<br />dispute what you say, since I am in<br />no position to. <br /><br />However, I think one would not earn <br />any sympathy by stating:<br /><br />``But the Bangalore of a few years ago was a cultural wasteland, except for Carnatic and (occasionally) Hindustani music and Bharatanatyam dance, which were patronised mainly by elderly Brahmin families.''<br /><br />First of all, I would seriously doubt what you<br />are saying. How was the spectral decomposition<br />of the audience done to determine the<br />caste quantum numbers? Besides, just because<br />it is patronized by Brahmins it does mean that<br />the art form should be despised or detested.<br />Did these patrons prevent others from coming?<br />You would also be well advised to note that<br />for the longest time Brahmins avoided <br />Bharatanatyam because of the stigma attached<br />to the form practised by Devadasis, but that<br />is another story. I would venture to say that<br />your remarks also betray chauvinism of a<br />certain kind, and is as reprehensible as the<br />chauvinism of the upper castes that you despise<br />so much. By taking the discourse on this route<br />one simply worsens the tensions already present<br />in society. And finally, if CNR is nostalgic<br />about this or that, it is his right. You and I <br />cannot decide what he should be nostalgic<br />about. <br /><br />Best regards, AnantAnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-34679075578388335712006-12-01T09:13:00.000+05:302006-12-01T09:13:00.000+05:30ws - maybe you're right. (I'm not sure about the ...ws - maybe you're right. (I'm not sure about the Egyptian thing -- can't remember where I read it and it may have been a joke -- but as tr points out it's pretty old.) But the world has evolved faster in the last 500 years (and especially the last 100 years) than at any point in history, so maybe that makes people feel insecure.<br /><br />Sri - thanks. I too have met students, "self-hating" may be a strong word, but with very low self-esteem and excessively deferential. And worryingly, they're only a few years younger than me.<br /><br />Ashutosh -- well there are two aspects to funding, funding for research and your own paypacket. I suppose the lay public is worried about the latter, which is tied for most of us to government pay scales. I agree this has to be sorted out if we want to attract better talent. Realistically though, it's not bad money at all even now... As for research grants, I don't agree that funding is not available for basic sciences. <br /><br />tr - true. Others have said (see comments on abi's blog) that CNR stated things badly but they agree with him.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-41118316296583900052006-11-30T23:19:00.000+05:302006-11-30T23:19:00.000+05:30i typed out a comment this morning along the lines...i typed out a comment this morning along the lines of i don't know about the egyptian business but i do recall reading something along similar lines in plato's republic.<br /><br />anyway, i think it's interesting he said what he did, simply for the fact that he's bound to get a sympathetic audience regardless of the facts. can't go wrong on this one.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-11708740244499705332006-11-30T22:52:00.000+05:302006-11-30T22:52:00.000+05:30Well, one is asking for monetary and moral support...Well, one is asking for monetary <i>and</i> moral support. Prof. Rao's article does not mention one important point; the dwindling of the importance of a career in science or the arts for their children among the middle class. <br />One point I would also like to make is that the coverage the media gives to people of certain professions is not necessarily commensurate with the popularity of that profession among people. So just because Amartya Sen is touted by the media does not mean demand or encouragement for economists or economics increases among the lay public. As you say, even now for the middle class, the monetary aspect is the major problem. But so is a lack of scientific attitude. And yes, we have more budget for funding science than ever before, but sadly, it's still not good enough, and is largely diverted to 'popular' fields and not basic science in general.<br />On the other hand, I do understand Prof. Rao's bemoaning youth; his generation had many more scientists of excellent calibre than our generation, there is no doubt about that. Many reasons abound for this fact, but the fact that there were very few private engineering and medicine colleges then definitely played a role. Many promising and intelligent students who studied engineering today would have likely opted to study the sciences then.Wavefunctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14993805391653267639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-4285404287090176942006-11-30T20:54:00.000+05:302006-11-30T20:54:00.000+05:30I think I should make this compulsory reading for ...I think I should make this compulsory reading for my students! :) <br /><br />I'm not really worried about the yester-generation bemoaning the youth. I'm more worried about several younger people who say very similar things! I've seen several young folks (myself included, some years ago) who took such bemoaning to heart, saw them as absolute truths since they came from an elderly respected person, and started hating themselves and feeling guilty about whatever they do. <br /><br />Is it any wonder that the "slave mentality" is so prevalent in our society still?Srinath Srinivasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652422409426624399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-50690739811126632592006-11-30T19:57:00.000+05:302006-11-30T19:57:00.000+05:30Rahul
I meant that this generic tendency to look b...Rahul<br />I meant that this generic tendency to look back into the past and bemoan the current state of affairs is a survival strategy. It helps us to deny the inevitability of change and give continued sustenance to our memories.wildflower seedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524758486095224055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-31428474532082339162006-11-30T17:30:00.000+05:302006-11-30T17:30:00.000+05:30ws - you're saying CNR said those things to surviv...ws - you're saying CNR said those things to survive? or I did?<br /><br />Natasha - nice observation. But to be fair, he's talking (I think) of research in universities.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-83496717441537682472006-11-30T11:38:00.000+05:302006-11-30T11:38:00.000+05:30But off course, there's nothing to talk about in s...But off course, there's nothing to talk about in science. By his own admission, 'research has nearly come to a standstill in India'!<br /><br />http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/29/stories/2006102917330300.htm<br /><br />NatashaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-69840401602721207302006-11-30T01:00:00.000+05:302006-11-30T01:00:00.000+05:30"some of the earliest deciphered Egyptian hierogly..."some of the earliest deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphics are reportedly of elders lamenting the youth of their day"<br /><br />:D<br /><br />Our brains are wired for survival, not for truth.wildflower seedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524758486095224055noreply@blogger.com