tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post8156634186463767599..comments2024-03-06T13:50:29.718+05:30Comments on E's flat, ah's flat too: Worrying about vaccinesRahul Siddharthanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-30578301247459261822009-05-16T08:01:00.000+05:302009-05-16T08:01:00.000+05:30Sorry, make "14 days" above "14 weeks".
RFK quote...Sorry, make "14 days" above "14 weeks".<br /><br />RFK quotes the same number (187 micrograms) over 6 months, which he says is 40% over the EPA daily average limits. But these shots were not given as daily averages: individual shots could go as much as 99 times the EPA daily average limit. See clarifications at the bottom of the article.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-30232058830795317572009-05-16T07:53:00.000+05:302009-05-16T07:53:00.000+05:30Sakshi - thanks for your comments and sorry if I m...Sakshi - thanks for your comments and sorry if I misunderstood you.<br /><br />The trouble is, doctors are often not very familiar with the literature (the Ben Goldacre article that I linked in my posting mentions that a doctor would need 700 hours a month to keep abreast of the literature) and immunologists don't actually see kids and their reactions.<br /><br />About animal vaccines, <A HREF="http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/" REL="nofollow">this article</A> by RFK Jr says the FDA "considered" banning thimerosal from animal vaccines in 1991; perhaps that statement got exaggerated by Carrey and others. RFK's article too is alarming reading. Once again, while I have seen takedowns of it, they focus on only a few aspects (notably, misrepresentation of the Simpsonwood meeting). It quotes a huge number of important people by name. <br /><br />About the "no link" studies, the more widely quoted ones (<A HREF="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/577" REL="nofollow">this one</A> and <A HREF="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/584" REL="nofollow">this one</A>) were done in the UK, where both the total number of vaccines administered and the number that contain thimerosal are much fewer than in the US. In fact, the second (retrospective) study only considers DTP and DT vaccines, which are administered in 4-5 doses, the first three being over a year or so, each containing about 20 micrograms of ethyl mercury. In contrast, <A HREF="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10770336" REL="nofollow">this paper</A> says (as quoted <A HREF="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1280342#b13-ehp0113-001015" REL="nofollow">here</A> -- I can't access it from home) that US infants in 2000 received nearly 200 micrograms in the first 14 days of life, which is at or above the toxicity limit.<br /><br />Much of the pro-vaccine comment focuses on the presentation, and not the content, of arguments by RFK, Carrey, et al. That's my problem.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-3445084443629981592009-05-16T01:54:00.000+05:302009-05-16T01:54:00.000+05:30Pubmed will be too time consuming to go through no...Pubmed will be too time consuming to go through now. So I did the next best thing - looked up ingredients for dog/cat vaccines and found that thimerosal is still present in them.<br /><br />Hope that helps.Sakshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-56826901968139820162009-05-16T01:52:00.000+05:302009-05-16T01:52:00.000+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.Sakshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15254710232597224075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-32902033982148342552009-05-16T01:18:00.000+05:302009-05-16T01:18:00.000+05:30@ Rahul - I did the quick Pubmed search and it is ...@ Rahul - I did the quick Pubmed search and it is around the 94-95 that thiomerusal was removed from small animal vaccines. Large animal vaccines still contain it. A couple of papers indicated sensitivity to the compound. I did not come across neurotoxicity reports but it was a very quick search. I will look into it over the weekend<br /><br />I am sorry if it came across as I was coming down on you as an antivaccer. It was not my intention. I do however dont understand the mistrust of CDC.<br /><br />And FYI, I am not friends with Orac. Don't know the guy but have read him over the years. Since the antivaccination thing began.<br /><br />I am willing to tackle your difficult questions but I would need time to do that. I am not an immunologist and would rather not make any claims that are wrong.<br /><br />As I said before your concerns are not invalid. But I would ask an immunologist or a doctor to address my concerns - about the toxicity, necessity and the studies out there. And I would trust them to have my child's best interest at heart.Sakshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-3567146177577201002009-05-16T01:04:00.000+05:302009-05-16T01:04:00.000+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.Sakshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15254710232597224075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-42778323231082217232009-05-16T00:02:00.000+05:302009-05-16T00:02:00.000+05:30Sakshi: we have given the kid every vaccine on the...Sakshi: we have given the kid every vaccine on the IAP schedule (which means every vaccine on the national schedule), plus a few; and have drawn the line at a few others, in consultation with our paediatrician. She herself seems skeptical about certain combination vaccines, but is helpless because the individual vaccines are no longer available.<br /><br />I thought it was perfectly clear from my post that I am not anti-vaccine; your response confirms my suspicion that anyone who does not wholeheartedly endorse the recommendations of the CDC (including someone like Jay Gordon, who probably sees more kids in a week than your friend Orac sees in a lifetime) must be "anti-vaccine".<br /><br />The paper I linked to shows clearly that previous ways of estimating toxicity of ethylmercury (by comparing with known toxicity levels of methylmercury) are unreliable. It was, notably, not from the medical community. Though I agree with Orac on several things, I find his brazenly confident defence of thimerosal quite off-putting. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether the thing was removed from animal vaccines in 1992, and if so, why. Also for why the CDC recommends so many more vaccines than other countries, and in the case I mentioned (Hep-A), goes against WHO recommendations.<br /><br />The way the self-appointed pro-vacciners jump on the easy questions -- or worse, construct strawman questions that they then jump on -- and avoid the difficult ones does not inspire confidence.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-21226693998091641302009-05-15T23:22:00.000+05:302009-05-15T23:22:00.000+05:30@Rahul - The flu vaccines might not "eliminate" th...@Rahul - The flu vaccines might not "eliminate" the virus but it will go a long way to keep the epidemic in check. That is where the herd immunity comes from. The young and the old are the ones hit the hardest by flu. 38,000 people die in US each year of flu- it is not a minor disease.<br />Thimerosal's removal from human vaccines was bought about by a FDA act in 1997 and was removed from childhood vaccines in 2001.(Autism spike does not coincide with this - it keeps spiking even after the removal of thimerosal and hence the demand for "green" vaccines from the antivaccers crowd.)<br /><br />Regarding its safety -<br />Thimerosal is metabolized in the body to ethyl mercury and thiosalicylate. While ethyl mecury is harmful in high dosage, there has been no studies that show effect on chronic low dosage of ehtyl mercury on neurological development (as far as I know, this is not my field of study and I could be wrong). And it also seems to cleared out of the blood quicker and more effectively than its more dangerous cousin methyl mercury.<br />I have seen nothing about thimerosal toxicity studies and autism links - the only claim was by Dr.Wakefield and lately it was shown that he faked the data. <br />The most significant study was done in 2001/2 (forgot by whom, published in Lancet) and the investigators monitored mercury elimination in vaccinated infants. They found that levels of mercury derivatives were below toxic levels. There is now a larger follow up study going on (<A HREF="http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosalqa.htm" REL="nofollow">Check here for more information</A>)<br /><br />The oldest study I found was in 1930, these animal studies used 20mg of thimerosal/kg (rabbits)- which is using a lot. And hence would have shown toxicity :)<br /><br /><br />I applaud your concern for your child's safety. My advice would be to read (as suggested above) Orac's blog and get in touch with him to address your questions. He is a doctor and hence would be able to deal with all your concerns about your child's vaccination. I dont know appropriate authorities in India but I am sure there are people like Orac in India too.Sakshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-50265881524786242862009-05-15T22:36:00.000+05:302009-05-15T22:36:00.000+05:30Sakshi: the CDC mostly does not do research; it ma...Sakshi: the CDC mostly does not do research; it makes recommendations based on other people's research. The "no link between thimerosal and autism" studies that I have seen had nothing to do with the CDC. <br /><br />Carrey claims that thimerosal was removed from animal vaccines in 1992. I have seen this claim elsewhere (and claims that Eli Lilly had evidence of its toxicity in the 1930s, but suppressed it). Is that true?<br /><br />There are other peer-reviewed papers out there -- say, <A HREF="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1280342" REL="nofollow">this one</A> -- that suggest one cannot make firm claims about the safety of thimerosal.<br /><br />I listed a large number of claims made by Carrey that are ignored by Summers, and by all the other debunking articles that I have seen. What would it take for me to trust thimerosal and combination vaccines, and the CDC recommendations? Addressing those claims would be a start. Explaining why, in the case of Hepatitis A, the CDC disagrees with the WHO's recommendations, would be useful too. <br /><br />A lot of the vaccines under discussion -- influenza, hepatitis A, etc -- have nothing to do with "herd immunity": nobody is hoping to eliminate those diseases. Your comment, like so many of the posts out there, relies on such strawmen.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-6768416731385243132009-05-15T22:04:00.000+05:302009-05-15T22:04:00.000+05:301. Why disbelieve CDC research? It is not industry...1. Why disbelieve CDC research? It is not industry funded and is under a lot of pressure to be as correct as possible. <br />2. Mercury in vaccines was removed after the anti-vaccers kept crying about the autism link, DESPITE, numerous studies that showed that such a link was a myth. It was to reassure the public but the goal posts have been moved again - now the concern is about "green" vaccines or "bundling" vaccines. <br />There is enough peer reviewed literature and well written articles that address all the the dubious claims that articles like Carey's make. How ever, it seems that people are more than ready to mistrust scientists than celebs who have no knowledge about science whatsoever but are willing to go on and on about dangers of vaccines.<br />Vaccines work due to herd immunity. If people start mistrusting valid, proven scientific opinion then the diseases we have conquered are going to come back. <br />3.What will it take for skeptics to believe in vaccines? I would like someone to explain that,lay out the points you want addressed and what will it take for you to believe in them. That way one can go about addressing the issues.Sakshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-90308882761862805602009-05-15T21:49:00.000+05:302009-05-15T21:49:00.000+05:30Try reading Respectful Insolence on the Scienceblo...Try reading Respectful Insolence on the Scienceblogs. He has been writing on vaccines, their effectiveness and the myths of autism/vaccines for long time.<br />Hope that helps.ProVaccinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-32506061107285368372009-05-15T19:11:00.000+05:302009-05-15T19:11:00.000+05:30I came across this blog which quotes a report from...I came across <A HREF="http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2006/04/thimerosal-and-autism-in-india_06.html" REL="nofollow">this</A> blog which quotes a report from 2006 about the use of mercury in vaccines in India.kmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16040339235134145847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3112258799568696095.post-76760402809191234442009-05-15T17:38:00.000+05:302009-05-15T17:38:00.000+05:30super post, thanks. fwded to relevant authority.super post, thanks. fwded to relevant authority.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.com